tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post115417886481335928..comments2023-10-20T21:46:49.945+08:00Comments on Philippine Commentary: One Voice Is Being HeardDeany Bocobohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01443168826029321831noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154506470883101722006-08-02T16:14:00.000+08:002006-08-02T16:14:00.000+08:00juan,i understand where dean is coming from, and a...juan,<BR/><BR/>i understand where dean is coming from, and altho I still think he has little reason to believe that corruption tainted the bidding, I have decided to simple agree to disagree.<BR/><BR/>I am curious, however, to know what your basis is for believing the same.Trip Atomichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17629409711014592640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154422008243277182006-08-01T16:46:00.000+08:002006-08-01T16:46:00.000+08:00Kulas,The bidding was technically illegal and the ...Kulas,<BR/>The bidding was technically illegal and the court showed that in the decisision. They made a big thing for example about the spec change from 99.9995% accuracy to 99.995% accuracy. But it doesn't square with the enormity of the impact on the elections. The real goal was simply to kill the automation project because the election machine run by Garci could not have handled the required "dagdag bawas". <BR/><BR/>Now I shall tell you that I did hear one rumour from a social matrona whose circle of social matronas were abuzz during the November to December 2003 time frame (just before the decision was handed down) because one of their members who was married to a rich Chinese guy that was part of the MPC consortium, was suddenly spending extravagantly on luxury items like jewelry and anew mercedes benz. It was said that the consortium members KNEW the project for which they supplied ACMs would NOT actually be used during the elections, so they really didn't have to worry about any of it working at all. They had gotten the billion pesos by this point. I didn't believe any of it until mid-January, 2004 when the Decision was handed down, and my own column in the Inquirer from mid December was quoted in the Decision on a technical software objection to the system. (It's one of the final footnotes of the Decision.) But even if that corruption angle is true, the FAR bigger story is really WHY the system was so peremptorily kiboshed by the Supreme Court: so Garci could cheat the 2004 elections!<BR/><BR/>Maybe Panganiban was really convincedDeany Bocobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01443168826029321831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154420898402270372006-08-01T16:28:00.000+08:002006-08-01T16:28:00.000+08:00DJB,Just what kind of impression did wish to give ...DJB,<BR/><BR/>Just what kind of impression did wish to give when you said:<BR/><BR/>"I think you are right that the Decision was flimsy even if it was right about the "bidding"."kulashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06456677398070447652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154419652595594342006-08-01T16:07:00.000+08:002006-08-01T16:07:00.000+08:00postigo,I don't believe the bidding was corrupt ei...postigo,<BR/><BR/>I don't believe the bidding was corrupt either! Sorry if i gave that impression. In fact, the more interesting question is really WHY the Court decided in the way it did. It has been my theory that the junking was ordered by the Palace because Garci did not think he could handle the operation if there was this big change in the process. And that Panganiban made it happen with the expectation that he would become Chief Justice.<BR/><BR/>Am I wrong? Coz I don't actually know. Your theory?<BR/><BR/>I can't believe they just made a mistake.Deany Bocobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01443168826029321831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154415021751937012006-08-01T14:50:00.000+08:002006-08-01T14:50:00.000+08:00I omitted this (sheepish) ...All these facts show ...I omitted this (sheepish) ...<BR/><BR/>All these facts show that at no point during the bidding process was any law violated. Nor were there any violations of COMELEC's bidding rules and procedures. <BR/><BR/>And since turn about is fair play, may I ask, my friend, what basis do you have for believing that the bidding was corrupt?Trip Atomichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17629409711014592640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154413905789719042006-08-01T14:31:00.000+08:002006-08-01T14:31:00.000+08:00Hey DJB,I don't think the bidding was corrupt or d...Hey DJB,<BR/><BR/>I don't think the bidding was corrupt or done illegally. Ignoring for the nonce, Davide's statement that no suggestion of graft tainted the project, the facts would bear out that conclusion:<BR/><BR/>1. The members of the mega pacific consortium had always represented themselves as being part of the consortium; and consortia were explicitly allowed to participate<BR/><BR/>1.a. The reason Panganiban didn't see this was because the Court is no trier of facts. It didn't have access to testimony on the contemporaneous events and surrounding circumstances that would have conclusively proved the existence of consortium. <BR/><BR/>Why then, didn't they remand it to the trial courts, as suggested by Tinga, for the exhaustve ventilation of the undisputed facts? I don't know. But that doesn't mean Tinga was wrong.<BR/><BR/>2. The COMELEC had always made it very clear that the provisions of the BOT law could be applied to the automation bidders, hence, the BOT provision that the totality of the qualifications of the consortium members would be used to determine the eligibility of the consortium should have been made to apply.<BR/><BR/>3. All proceedings relating to the bidding were witnessed by external agencies, and none of those witnesses ever raised a complaint about the procedures that were followed.<BR/><BR/>4. The BAC was well within the scope of its authority when it declared the various errors (the ones being harped on by the petitioners in ITFP v. COMELEC) to be minor and not fatal to the bid. <BR/><BR/>5. The BAC showed no manifest favor for the winning bidder. If anything, the number of waived errors (all considered minor) was greater for the losing bidder.<BR/><BR/>6. The BAC's recommendation was made only after gruelling testing by the DOST. Testing that was witnessed by people allied with the petitioners, independent observers, and even the media (Bernadette Sembrano was there, and I have to say, the woman doesn't sweat. she glows). <BR/><BR/>7. The BAC delivered a full oral report to the en banc regarding their recommendation. Only later did they submit their written recommendation, which did nothing but reduce their oral recommendation into writing. Is it logical to say that an oral report - delivered in front of the en banc, and subject to questioning - is somehow inferior to a written report? <BR/><BR/>And since turn about is fair play, may I ask, my friend, what basis do you have for believing that the bidding was corrupt?Trip Atomichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17629409711014592640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154385277170376492006-08-01T06:34:00.000+08:002006-08-01T06:34:00.000+08:00good morning Postigo,We are actually thinking alon...good morning Postigo,<BR/>We are actually thinking along the very same lines! I agree with you that the TECHNICAL reasoning of the Decision cannot justify imposing it at such a late date. I've ALWAYS puzzled over this, which was why I had suggested to you in the earlier postings that the automation was junked for OTHER than technical reasons. Panganiban was able to show off some of his superficial knowledge of technology, since he was trying to become the "technology" guy on the Court. But just as I thought RA 8496 was a written by computer dummies, I thought the decisions was an even worse amateur's job, at least where they were using "technical" objections to the system. I believe your assertion that the systems were " fine" at least in so far as DOST's testing, though other system design considerations really do make the overall design unacceptable to me. For example, the transmission and data handling part of the system is actually more critical than the counting technology. <BR/><BR/>I think you are right that the Decision was flimsy even if it was right about the "bidding". <BR/><BR/>Btw, do you agree that the bidding was "corrupt" or done illegally?Deany Bocobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01443168826029321831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154361221568755772006-07-31T23:53:00.000+08:002006-07-31T23:53:00.000+08:00Just very curious ... how many people know that:Th...Just very curious ... how many people know that:<BR/><BR/>The Supreme Court held only one hearing on the Automation Case, and that one hearing was for a TRO which was NOT granted.<BR/><BR/>The Supreme Court held no other hearings, nor received any other evidence after that.<BR/><BR/>The Supreme Court - on the same body of evidence that it said was not enough to warrant a TRO - later said that the evidence was enough to strike down a consummated contract.<BR/><BR/>The Supreme Court, in striking down the contract, simply relied on the supremely debatable assumption that the existence of a consortium could only be proven by a single document and not by a multiplicity of documents (as maintained by another Justice in her concurring opinion) supported by testimonial evidence showing contemporaneous acts and circumstances , all pointing to the existence of a consortium.<BR/><BR/>The Supreme Court HAD to rely on it's "single document" theory because it is not a trier of facts, and so could not ask the parties to present testimony.<BR/><BR/>The Supreme Court's nullification of the contract is, therefore, based on a SINGLE assumption that was not supported by facts - the facts were actually never even looked into.<BR/><BR/>The Supreme Court, perhaps aware of the need to shore up such a flimsy decision, resorted to stigmatizing the technology used by resorting to doomsday scenarios.<BR/><BR/>These scenarios were all the product of the underinformed mind of the present Chief Justice, without the benefit of expert opinion, and in total disregard of the DOST's findings.<BR/><BR/>The COMELEC offered expert opinion but it was cavalierly dismissed by the Supreme Court without even saying why it was unacceptable.<BR/><BR/>Really. Just very curious.Trip Atomichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17629409711014592640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154351721321155772006-07-31T21:15:00.000+08:002006-07-31T21:15:00.000+08:00John,I think we are stuck with Comelec as it is cu...John,<BR/>I think we are stuck with Comelec as it is currently populated, though I guess One Voice is campaigning hard for the seventh and last member that will be appointed to somehow be someone of unquestioned integrity. (good luck!)<BR/><BR/>Worse, I heard that ABalos is calling for a law to be passed that will allow them to use the system they illegally paid out a billion for...so they don't have to return the money of the citizenry after they feasted on it in a corruption case that the Supreme Court, with all its high and mighty powers, can't seem to punish. <BR/><BR/>More than likely JDV and his Kongress will pass just such a law. <BR/><BR/>They're gonna screw the people both ways: first with a manual election, then next with an "automated one"!<BR/><BR/>I hope the Senate bill will shortcircuit some of these machinations, by introducing provisions will make the need for an honest Comelec largely obsolete.Deany Bocobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01443168826029321831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154342742485682692006-07-31T18:45:00.000+08:002006-07-31T18:45:00.000+08:00Eventually, we will have to use the automated coun...Eventually, we will have to use the automated counting machines. Pero let's first clean up the COMELEC muna of those who are involved in GLORIAGATE and it's coverup.<BR/><BR/>Kasi I agree <A HREF="http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=110502A" REL="nofollow">with Instapundit</A> na it is easier to cheat kung automated siya at mas mahirap mahuli ang mga ito lalo na kapag insiders ang gumagawa.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.verifiedvotingfoundation.org/article.php?id=6355" REL="nofollow">More here</A>:<BR/><BR/><I>Further adding to the scandal is the fact that the backdoor (or doors) were designed into the machines intentionally, against accepted design practice and, indeed, simple common sense, as Diebold spokesman David Bear admits in the <A HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/12/us/12vote.html?ex=1305086400&en=5b3554a76aad524a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss" REL="nofollow">same New York Times article</A>. He goes on to say, <B>"For there to be a problem here, you're basically assuming a premise where you have some evil and nefarious election officials who would sneak in and introduce a piece of software," he said. "I don't believe these evil elections people exist."</B></I><BR/><BR/>Obviously, he's never seen how some of our COMELEC officials operate.<BR/><BR/>At may mga <A HREF="http://www.pcij.org/blog/?p=1003#more-1003" REL="nofollow">GLORIAGATE COMELEC officials</A> hindi pa natatanggaljohn marzanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08036820667908976630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154339786581541272006-07-31T17:56:00.000+08:002006-07-31T17:56:00.000+08:00In the Media workshop of One Voice, there was an i...<I>In the Media workshop of One Voice, there was an interesting discussion on the accusation of Palace surrogates that the organization is "elitist" and proof of this was the estimated P252 million cost of the ad campaign (which Christian Monsod disputed and said was actually less than 10% of that figure). But the discussion centered on how to "counter" this charge. I was playing the Devil's Advocate by observing that Filipinos don't have any problem voting for elites, both from the political, business, social and entertainment elites, all of whom have one thing in common: money. It comes with the turf, and though One Voice proclaims nonpartisanship, the general impression I get from my own (unscientific) polls of people, is that most think of One Voice as being "anti-GMA". (I suppose it's the prominent presence among its signatories of the "Bishops 6" accused of participating in what ABSCBN News insists was a "failed coup d'etat" last Feb. 24.) But contrary to some "politically correct" opinions expressed at the workshop that One Voice should project a masa image, I don't think it hurts One Voice at all if the Palace wants to portray it as having P252 million pesos worth of support from anonymous donors.</I><BR/><BR/>they don't have to project a masa image. the trick here is to not act in a condescending manner towards it's target audience -- whether taga-masa man sila o taga-middle class. don't talk down to them. <BR/><BR/><I>The group decided, it would not go into a defensive position on the Palace accusation. Right on! There is no need to display elitist guilt feelings or self-consciousness. It's enough that one's true motives are on the side of the people, and not hypocritical elites whose motives are not.</I><BR/><BR/>tama yan.john marzanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08036820667908976630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154335623015195832006-07-31T16:47:00.000+08:002006-07-31T16:47:00.000+08:00I am sorry for posting this here,instead of the pr...I am sorry for posting this here,instead of the previous blog.<BR/><BR/><BR/>People forget the anti semitists in America.<BR/><BR/>In the news,although he is an Aussie...Mel Gibson even blamed his DUI against the Jews!<BR/><BR/>Maybe he still thought that he was in the set of his movie,while being under the influence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154332925402913572006-07-31T16:02:00.000+08:002006-07-31T16:02:00.000+08:00Off topic,As noticed too by Amadeo,I don't see any...Off topic,<BR/><BR/>As noticed too by Amadeo,<BR/>I don't see anywhere in the blogosphere the plan for evacuation of Filipinos in Israel.<BR/><BR/>Is there any news about this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154327774974308102006-07-31T14:36:00.000+08:002006-07-31T14:36:00.000+08:00Oh God. The quotes of Victor Davis Hanson show jus...Oh God. The quotes of Victor Davis Hanson show just how far the this once respectable soul has sunk. Sure, they can be funny in a private, partisan, trying-to-make-a-point but snickering kind of way and I can kind of understand why DJB might want to point to them, but the words themselves are far above what I've come to expect from DJB.<BR/><BR/>If you don't know Hanson, this <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Davis_Hanson" REL="nofollow">Wikipedia article</A> is a start. <BR/><BR/>Here's another, more recent <A HREF="http://nitpicker.blogspot.com/2005/10/soul-of-victor-davis-hanson.html" REL="nofollow">view of him</A> by someone that started out respecting him also.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10173927488646461044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154315671304307502006-07-31T11:14:00.000+08:002006-07-31T11:14:00.000+08:00DJB,Don't you just wish you authored "The Victory ...DJB,<BR/><BR/>Don't you just wish you authored "The Victory of Untruth" yourself?kulashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06456677398070447652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154313498816369742006-07-31T10:38:00.000+08:002006-07-31T10:38:00.000+08:00Thanks DJB!I know there has been a lot of programs...Thanks DJB!<BR/>I know there has been a lot of programs...<BR/>Senator Honasan,has one National Recovery program he wants implemented.<BR/>Nemenzo has another.<BR/><BR/>We all want change,why not consider one voice?<BR/><BR/>I too have initial skepticism.I have asked many blogger friends on their thoughts,and I heard them.<BR/><BR/>I decided to register on-line,with the reasons and points mentioned above as my weighing scale.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154309536779750692006-07-31T09:32:00.000+08:002006-07-31T09:32:00.000+08:00Excellent points Karl!Excellent points Karl!Deany Bocobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01443168826029321831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154305653511964102006-07-31T08:27:00.000+08:002006-07-31T08:27:00.000+08:00In addition,to the ills of society,which can not b...In addition,to the ills of society,which can not be changed immediately with the removal of gma.<BR/><BR/>The bureacratic layers,coupled by the size of the bureaucracy leading to red tape, which the president proudly says can be removed by chacha.<BR/><BR/>Rationalization of positions is fine but to have it replaced by irrational solutions like by ading new government offices by creating new ones,will make the move null and void..<BR/><BR/>What about our present law making bodies,more laws with no budget,more laws to change the name of the streets,more laws to add waiting sheds and yet they want it expedited by removing the check and balance factor,which they say won't be removed at all.<BR/>Can that be immediately resolved by removing the sitting president?<BR/><BR/>The comelec,the AFP,the deped,the statistics body, have been tackled and discussed already in this blog,<BR/>all of these problems will still reamin even with the immediate stepping down.<BR/><BR/>That is the reason,why I don't mind them not calling themselves anti-arroyo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154267128149476192006-07-30T21:45:00.000+08:002006-07-30T21:45:00.000+08:00Bystander,I think our problems are even worse than...Bystander,<BR/><BR/>I think our problems are even worse than you say. If GMA were the biggest of these problems, or even the worst of them, we should actually be happy. But imagine her gone and what would you have left? Almost exactly the same debased and paralyzed basket case of a society. Or imagine that she were the exact opposite of herself, how much of these problems would remain as the same seemingly insurmountable stack of self-inflicted disabiities and societal weaknesses! Take the challenge of electoral reforms. Not even a Comelec filled with angels would be sufficient to eliminate the cheating, corruption and inefficiency that are the corrosive acids eating away at democracy. <BR/><BR/>Look at the Filipinos themselves. Many are actually as "corrupt" and despicable as her. Go to any slums and observe the men with their big fat stomachs proudly exposed deliberately as a sign of laziness and pleasure-seeking, while all around them are filth and chaos that a lil elbow grease could alleviate. But no! they think poverty gives them the right to do nothing. <BR/><BR/>GMA is only one tumor among many in our metastatic condition. I think it is convenient for us to speak as if she were the only real problem and that everything would be hunky dory if we could just punish or obliterate her. <BR/><BR/>Sadly, the situation as I said, is actually far worse than you seem to appreciate. And solution much harder than you suppose. <BR/><BR/>Innovate, don't just fulminate Bystander! Turn your anger into creativity, your frustration into cunning, and give to your convictions the power of courage at prospects of failure.<BR/><BR/>Doctor, heal thyself!Deany Bocobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01443168826029321831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154263261178731802006-07-30T20:41:00.000+08:002006-07-30T20:41:00.000+08:00I'm all for electoral reform and I agree with you ...I'm all for electoral reform and I agree with you that with or without GMA, our electoral woes would nonetheless persist. But as I said, I doubt it if this government will ever implement the needed "reforms" with Mrs. Arroyo at the helm. She hates it. It is anathema to her rule. It's not a bad idea to advocate on social and electoral reforms but they must be coupled with a demand for accountability from those who manipulated the elections of 2004. And this is where ONE VOICE seems to be lacking, deliberately or not. <BR/><BR/>Moreover, even assuming that the 2007 elections will be "credible", it can never be used as a measure to determine GMA's fitness to remain in office. Why? Because the people in the countryside will vote for the Congressmen and Mayors either based on parochial concerns or whoever can show the money come election day. Whether or not their favorite Congressman is pro or anti Arroyo is a non-issue insofar as they're concerned. So how can Christian Monsod say that the 2007 elections, even if credible, wil put to rest the scandals besetting GMA's presidency? <BR/><BR/>We must first remove (legally, through peaceful means if possible) the one big stumbling block to all these meaningful reforms -- GMA -- before Christian or his wife Winnie even murmurs the idea of electoral reform. Besides, how can you push electoral reforms when Congress under JDV and the Comelec under Abalos are beholden to the Queen? Do you expect them to precisely put into law the practical suggestions of ONE VOICE? Or can you expect the likes of a defiant Abalos to precisely implement such reforms?the bystanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08518067503462566871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154251687120824902006-07-30T17:28:00.000+08:002006-07-30T17:28:00.000+08:00The reason I like the One voice approach Bystander...The reason I like the One voice approach Bystander, is that it represents a big tent under which all principled resolutions of the political crisis can be facilitated. For example since you are for impeachment, it simply does boil down to the numbers being present in the Congress, even if we know how the required number comes to be absent. If you truly are for impeachment this seems to be the only constitutional method of ensuring it happens. At the same time, those who are "disinclined" to support impeachment can truly put an end to it if in the elections next year the people refuse to vote in pro-impeachment reps. One Voice is also working hard a electoral reform as you can tell from the proceedings yesterday, because you are absolutely right about "credibility" of the elections. That is a problem that however GMA did not create, even if she worsened it. It will be there even after she is gone unless we do something about it now.Deany Bocobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01443168826029321831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154249543407984922006-07-30T16:52:00.000+08:002006-07-30T16:52:00.000+08:00Even with ONE VOICE (literally and figuratively), ...Even with ONE VOICE (literally and figuratively), the same will fall on DEAF EARS. How do you expect a government that’s bent on violating human rights and corrupting democratic institutions to SINCERELY LISTEN? The intentions may be noble but the question is: will it be enough to arouse and mobilize the general citizenry to act for the good of the country? Second, and this is what I'm hesitant about, they forget the fundamental fact that many of the reforms they are advocating can and will never be realized under the tutelage of Mrs. Arroyo.<BR/><BR/>Hoping for a credible elections in 2007 they say? If the "People's Initiative" of the Sigaw ng Bayan won't succeed (at the rate its campaign is going), she and her cohorts will make sure -- by hook or by crook -- that they get the most number of local and national positions to cement her hold on power. Yes, the 2007 elections should push through but it is highly doubtful whether it will ever be credible. I've said it before and I will say it again: <I>Mrs. Arroyo is the problem. Unless she resigns or is impeached or ousted</I>, efforts at social or electoral reform will only go for naught. This is a condition sine qua non. <BR/><BR/>Of course, as the saying goes, there's no harm in trying. But they run the risk of eventually becoming a VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS.the bystanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08518067503462566871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154245383937386282006-07-30T15:43:00.000+08:002006-07-30T15:43:00.000+08:00Hahaha! You got it Postigo! I'm just trying to lig...Hahaha! You got it Postigo! I'm just trying to lighten up after a long heavy week of war-vs-peace debates here at Philippine Commentary. Lucky everyone here has been pretty civil, even though this is a very emotional issue. Like I've said though, we learn the most from those who disagree with us.Deany Bocobohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01443168826029321831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154245088883139222006-07-30T15:38:00.000+08:002006-07-30T15:38:00.000+08:00DJB, I too wish i was there. I still remember when...DJB, I too wish i was there. I still remember when JoeCon's pet advocacy (aside from modernization, of course) was dipping the voter's entire forefinger in indelible ink. That was a really good idea, and I campaigned for it as hard as I could - obviously to no avail. I think I'll try again.<BR/><BR/>And thanks too for the plug for botanteKAMI. Its still going slow, but as elections near ... well, who can tell?<BR/><BR/>As for you being on the pedestal ... I would much rather have you at ground-level. Easier to talk with you then. You get a crick in the neck when you talk to someone up on a pedestal, and you don't know if he can even hear you. Besides, I hear that the air up there does things to a person.<BR/><BR/>About the doves - do you know what you get when you keep feeding pigeons? Fat pigeons!Trip Atomichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17629409711014592640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14974164.post-1154242679925993292006-07-30T14:57:00.000+08:002006-07-30T14:57:00.000+08:00They don't need to be maka masa,lalo silang magmuk...They don't need to be maka masa,lalo silang magmukhang show biz nyan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com